New Podcast Episode with Mirella Amato
New Podcast Episode with Mirella Amato
Prohibitchin' is back after a brief hiatus, with a little extra zhuzh.
Happy end of summer to you all and thank you all for your patience. Summer can be a reallly, realllllllly intense challenge for parents and I’m no exception. Certain kids, especially neurodivergent ones like my son, get really thrown off when their routine gets disrupted, so I decided to take a breather in order to accommodate his needs until school resumed. Now that he’s back to his regularly scheduled programming, Prohibitchin’ is too.
Of course, it wouldn’t be a comeback without a little shakeup. This month’s feature with Mirella Amato—a beverage educator, author, Master Cicerone, Master BJCP Judge, and all-around expert—has a twist. Some of you may have heard about Good Beer Hunting ceasing publication, taking with it my Feature and Collective podcast opportunities, as well as the burgeoning beer news podcast series The Gist hosted by Kate Bernot and I. (Kate is keeping a [new] version of it alive with Bryan Roth as part of Sightlines+ coverage, so tune in to them to keep up with all the latest beverage alcohol news.) That was my sole recurring podcast outlet and I’ve missed getting to chat with people and share our audio conversations with y’all! So, this month, you get to hear Mirella and I chat for Prohibitchin’.
I’ve never produced my own podcast before, so there aren’t any fancy musical interludes or edits. It’s just the two of us talking, and I’ve included the transcript below if you’d like to read along. (If you have feedback or suggestions on this audio format, let me know!)
This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity and readability.
Beth: Mirella, thanks so much for speaking with me for Prohibitchin’ today.
Mirella: My pleasure.
B: Let’s start things off with you letting listeners know who you are and what you do.
M: My name is Mirella Amato, I am based in Toronto, Ontario, Canada. I’ve been working in the beer industry for over 15 years now—I think 16, to be precise. My work has mostly been on the sensory and education side. I developed and taught a range of different courses and worked with sensory panels to help them in their work, as well as just general off-flavor courses for for brewers. I am currently working as the senior beer business development manager for WSET, which is a drinks education organization. Previously to that, I did write an award-winning book called Beerology: Everything You Need to Know to Enjoy Beer…Even More, and I also have an online course on beer and food pairing called Mastering Beer & Food Pairing brought to you by Beerology®. So yeah, I love to learn things and then communicate them to other people.
B: What initially interested you in beer? It sounds like you have devoted a huge chunk of your personal and professional life towards the beer education aspect of it, so what was it about the beverage or the community that initially interested you enough to to dedicate yourself so much to it?
M: Well, when I first discovered craft beer I had what I think in North America is a bit of an unusual introduction to craft beer, in the sense that I pretty much discovered craft beer as soon as I started drinking. I just happened to be hanging out with people who really liked cask conditioned ales and darker beers, which were far from being the norm at the time. We would go to craft beer bars, which at the time were few and far between. It was a time when, not like today, where you can pretty much enter any bar, and they'll probably have at least an IPA on tap. At the time, craft beer was really relegated to craft beer bars for craft beer geeks.
As I continued on in my life, I noticed so many people around me drinking the same beer all night by the pitcher, and not really thinking about how it can pair with your meal, or how you can enjoy a different beer flavor or style based on what mood you're in, or the season. So from a very early age, I always said when I retire, I'm going to write a book about craft beer, because I think more people should be enjoying this beverage, and a lot of people didn't even know about it. So in retrospect, it's very interesting to me that it certainly didn't occur to me as a career path. And it kind of makes sense, because back then, craft beer was really, really niche. I like to say it was like opera or stamp collecting—some people were really, really into it, and the rest of the world maybe was vaguely aware that it existed, but wasn't really interested. So it's always been a passion of mine.
I guess in the early days, I thought it was something I would have to wait until I retired to get to do. Then in the early 2000s, craft beer started to become a little bit more known and people started becoming intrigued by it. I saw an opportunity there to start working in beer, so I dove in.
B: At this point, you are a master BJCP judge, you’re a master Cicerone, so it seems like a lot of your work is focused on sharing your existing beer knowledge with others and developing it. Why is that educational aspect of the beverage industry such a driving force for you?
M: It's critical to me, both within the industry and outside of the industry. If we talk about inside the industry, just having a basic beer knowledge is so empowering, and it makes work so much more pleasant and interesting. Historically, there just hasn't been a lot of emphasis on education within our industry. Certainly, brewers are educated. They're schooled. Of course, some of them are self-taught. They come from home brewing, or they work their way up in a brewery, and that's also absolutely fine. But certainly if a brewer feels they should get some education, that's generally respected and some front-of-house people. But it is fascinating to me the large number of people who work in in beer who aren't 100% comfortable with describing beer, tasting beer, communicating its flavors, pairing it with food, that sort of thing.
Then outside the industry, especially now, I think that the education piece is critical. Craft beer has become quite a bit better known, and that's wonderful, but what we've seen—I’m being a little reductionist here, there's a bit more than this that's going on—but when I started back in the day, everyone was lager drinkers, and some people were craft beer drinkers. Now everyone in craft beer is IPA drinkers, and we’ve sort of fallen into that same [mindset]. Just like many years ago, I would meet someone who said “I don't like beer,” and what they meant was “I don't like golden lagers.” I meet people now who say “I don't like beer,” and what they mean is “I don't like IPAs,” because that's that's all they know.
Having spent 15 years of my life introducing people to beer and showing them the wide range of flavors that are out there, there are a lot of people who just like dark beers, a lot of people who just like Belgian styles. There are a lot of people who like beers with a certain acidity to them, and if they don't know those beers exist, they're just going to continue to think that they don't enjoy beer, and the more of those people discover their palates, hone their palates, feel empowered in terms of what they they enjoy, the more brewers will have the flexibility to return to brewing a range of styles. The number of breweries that are just five, six, IPAs— that's fine. IPAs are delicious, but there are other beers out there. The craft beer movement was born to bring variety. And somehow, there was an explosion of variety. Now it seems—again, I'm being reductionist—but it seems to have narrowed quite a bit. I certainly will struggle to find, let's say, an amber or a porter. Good luck finding a porter in many, many establishments, and sometimes you're in the mood for something a little maltier.
B: So far, what you've described is sharing and expanding beer knowledge with people who are already interested in beer, maybe are already working in beer. But let’s change gears a little bit and talk about your work developing the beer aspect of the WSET program, the Wine & Spirit Education Trust, that you described. Can you give us a little background into that program? I have a feeling that a lot of listeners who may be more on the beer side might not even know what that is, as well as kind of when and why you got involved in that particular program.
M: WSET is a not-for-profit drinks education organization. They were founded in in the U.K… sometime in the ‘60s? I’m not great with dates. [Note: it was 1969.] They've been doing education for a very long time. Actually, when they started, they had one course and it encompassed wine, of course, but also beer and spirits. As the industry has grown and shifted, the company decided to separate out their qualifications. So we have Level One, Two, and Three for wine, and then we have a wine diploma, which is very well respected in the wine world. Most people in the wine world are familiar with our organization.
We also have Level One, Two, and Three for spirits, which has been around for a number of years and is doing well. I completed the spirit certifications last year—it was super interesting. We have Level One, Two, and Three for sake, and they then decided that the next logical move was to create these beer certifications, and in February we launched Level One beer and Level Two beer.
So I began working for WSET actually as a consultant—as I mentioned, my background very much is in education and sensory—so they reached out to me as a consultant. I started working for them in 2020 when they were developing the materials. I consulted on the development and the content of the Level One and the Level Two. It was really an exciting opportunity for me, because my work has always been focused on education and on bringing beer knowledge to a wider range of people. I have an educational approach, which is different than than the way beer has been taught historically.
Very, very early on in my career, I became very aware that the way that we teach and communicate beer in this industry, at its origins, comes from the homebrewing movement, so a lot of the early materials were about not only how to enjoy beer, but how to how to brew beer, and making that connection. If you think of a lot of beer education organizations, they come from homebrewing, and they were founded by homebrewers, so this lends itself to to a slightly different approach, which always has this sort of ‘how to brew’ undercurrent. It resulted in a bit of a steep learning curve… of course, to enjoy beer, you have to understand the brewing process. But I also learned a whole bunch of things which, as a beer drinker, are not critical. For example, the vorlauf. Yes, if you're brewing, very important to complete that step. If you're a beer drinker, it's not really going to impact how you perceive that beer.
Another thing that I noticed a lot was tasting notes that refer to ingredients—this beer tastes like it has Citra hops in it, or this beer tastes like it was brewed with some Munich malts. For the general public, that's a bit difficult to process, right? So my approach to teaching beer, which culminated in my book a number of years ago, was very much focused on what's in the glass, what does someone really need to know to understand the beer in front of them, and to be empowered to describe that beer and to develop their palate and to communicate that palate. So when WSET approached me, it was great to see that we were very much on the same page about this, so I was very enthusiastic to join forces with them and to help them develop these materials.
We have a Level One that is really entry level. It's just one day. Anyone can come in and take the course with no prior beer knowledge and come out with just enough to really start feeling more comfortable around a beer menu and more confident in decision making. That approachability, for me, is a very appealing and important piece of what WSET is doing, and I sincerely hope that it invites a lot more people to to develop their palate a little bit better. Just the basics, just enough to be dangerous and to encourage more people in the industry also to to empower themselves and to learn a bit more about beer.
B: There have been a number of educational developments and initiatives over, I'll say just the past 10 years—especially here in the United States—where, if you are interested in learning about beer, there are courses you can take at universities. You can join BJCP, which does have that more [of that] undercurrent of homebrewing that you were describing earlier. You can become a Cicerone Beer Server or continue in that program, which is a little bit more front-of-house. If you were to quickly differentiate between BJCP, Cicerone, and the WSET program, how would you suggest somebody decide which one to go for if they're interested in learning a little bit more?
M: The WSET, first of all, I think would be useful to anyone who is looking to advance in either the BJCP or the Cicerone program, and I think I have enough experience with both those programs to say that with confidence.
B: I would agree with that!
M: One of the focal points of WSET is tasting and developing tasting. We have a systematic approach to tasting that we use to assess all beers. This might pull a wire out of some people's heads, but we don't assess the beers to style. We're really just looking at the beer in front of us, familiarizing ourselves with it, describing it, and then assessing its quality completely separate from style. My point being that it's very rigorous, it's a very disciplined approach. Certainly for anyone who is looking to tackle the BJCP tasting exam and advance in the BJCP, that tasting piece is critical. Just as critical as the tasting pieces is the confidence. I’m going to open a small sidebar here—I do grade BJCP exams, and it is fascinating to me. Something just as simple as “Is this beer gold, or is it amber?” No one can agree. It's fascinating to me. Or one person will say it's a pale red, one person will say it's amber, and another person will say it's a dark gold.
It's because we've never really, as an industry, had any kind of opportunity to all sit together and say, “Okay, here's the color scale. This is what it means. Here's where straw ends and gold starts. Here's where gold ends and amber begins.” Just that calibration, or something as simple as “What is the difference between a medium bitterness and a high bitterness?” If you haven't tasted as a group and calibrated to that, it's sometimes difficult. Obviously you can tell if something has a high or low bitterness, but where do we draw those lines? This is the kind of fine work that we do at WSET with the tasting piece, so I think it would be so valuable for someone who is preparing for the BJCP—especially the BJCP, because unless you have a study group, you're sort of on your own. Certainly, when I first started with the BJCP, I spent way too much time organizing a 10-week study group and getting all the people together and getting brewers to come in and speak. That's a lot of time and energy, and it's so wonderful that we now just have these courses that you can just go take. Similarly, with the Cicerone program… as soon as you get to certified Cicerone, there's a tasting component. For someone who really wants to build their confidence in that area, I think these courses will be invaluable.
The WSET is not geared towards a specific task. The BJCP is geared towards judging beer and brewing beer. And as you mentioned, Cicerone is more geared towards the front-of-house. WSET we have, historically, if you look at our data, people from all walks of the industry take our courses, so we wanted to create a course that would be pretty much useful to anyone who's in the industry. It's interesting to see the breakdown we have. It's sort of generally 50/50 enthusiasts and industry. Then within that industry part of the pie, there's really people from everywhere taking them. So if nothing else, it's a great entry point for someone who would just like to build their confidence in beer if they're tackling anything else.
Then the other thing I would definitely emphasize is anyone who's looking to strengthen their tasting skills, because again, with the BJCP, unless you create your own group, it can be challenging to find guidance—although, there's something to be said about those study groups. It's definitely a bonding experience. Same with the Cicerone program—depending on where you are, it might not be as easy to access courses to help you prepare for that tasting piece.
B: As somebody who launched a BJCP study group a few months after I gave birth, you have to be in a real certain mindset or desperation to get out of the house to launch a study group, because it certainly is not for someone casually interested. It is a lot of time and money and energy investment, but 100% worth it.
M: That sort of initiative—that's very familiar to me. That's how I rock. But historically, that's what's been necessary if you were looking to learn about beer. There are some small local programs that do teach beer from a not-production side, so what's most exciting to me is these courses that are ready-made and people can just register for and show up instead of doing what you and I have done, which is also super fun, but not for everyone.
B: Definitely not for everyone! But I do like hearing about the the judging aspect and the universal calibration aspect you were talking about earlier, because there are different sort of palate habits depending on where you are in the world. For example, my high bitterness tolerance as a San Diegan, the land of the West Coast IPAs, might be different from somebody who is just starting out and is coming from the the world of light lagers or amber ales or something like that. So I'm curious if you have traveled much or to any interesting or unique places in your judging experience, and if so, what were some of the takeaways that you've seen with palates from different places?
M: As a beer consultant and as someone who's focused on sensory, it's very important to me A) that I remain an active judge, and I do judge a number of competitions every year, and B) that I do travel. Unfortunately, for the past large number of years, I've had to cut down my travel quite a bit. So my focus really is to make sure I get to England, Germany, Belgium, and the U.S. every year, to sort of keep my finger on the pulse of what's going on there. But otherwise, I don't think I have any any current interesting information to share. I was in Italy in the early days of the craft beer movement there, and that was a really fascinating movement to be a part of. Just super interesting to see the different approach the way they were looking at things.
I think, certainly coming from Canada, our craft beer movement very much emulated what was going on in the U.S. There was sort of a direct parallel. In Italy, it was fascinating to see. They were dealing with primarily a wine audience, so the things that they had to do differently—the large focus on the bottles and the packaging there being very nice… I don't know if it's still the case. I'd be very interested to know, but back in the day, if it wasn't bottle conditioned, it wasn't craft beer. I don't know how much you know about production, but that's a big undertaking in terms of space, in terms of having the rooms that are at the right temperature, all of those bottles lying down. It was a fascinating thing to see. Then their experimentation with all of the different ingredients, with flowers, with a range of fruits, obviously, the chestnuts—we all know about the the grape ales, but they've always experimented with different wine techniques. But I'll be the first to admit that I'm a little under-traveled in terms of variety. I’m very curious to see what's going on in Brazil and all of these different fruits that they're brewing with. I need to get myself to some fonio beer posthaste. I have just heard a rumor that there is one available here in downtown Toronto, so I want to taste that.
But I've been talking to the organizers at the African Beer Cup, and I think that'll probably be next on my list. I’m very interested to see the ingredients that are being used out there and the innovative techniques. There's so much going on in the world of beer now. It's a little daunting, but it's also super exciting.
B: That was going to be my next question: where would you go, or where do you hope to go? But since you answered that, our time is wrapping up, and I'm curious if you have any last thoughts or final words for our listeners to take away.
M: I think the the most important thing for me has always been and continues to be that that beer is a delicious, delicious, refreshing beverage, and it definitely deserves to be better understood, and it definitely deserves to be studied. But let's not lose sight of the fact that it's beer and that it's yummy. You don't need to super geek out to appreciate it. It's wonderful, just the way it is.
B: Mirella Amato, thanks so much for joining me on Prohibitchin’.
M: Thank you. Thanks for having me.
Follow Mirella Amato on Instagram at @beerology.
Upcoming event: I’m joining forces with Bivouac Ciderworks for Autumn Tides & Cider Vibes at Mission Bay Resort at 6 pm on Thursday, October 10. The resort’s executive chef Roy Hendrickson is putting together a pairing menu to go with Bivouac ciders, and I’ll be chatting with Bivouac owner/CEO Lara Worm about San Diego cider, the contemporary rise of craft cider, and more. Tickets available now!
Speaking of books: I’ll have copies of my book on hand at the event, but if you don’t already have one, you can buy it on Bookshop.org, Amazon, or directly from me for a signed copy. Already have a copy? Leave a review—it helps a lot!
Nominate someone for Prohibitchin’: Now that I’m back in the saddle, I need nominations! Do you know of a woman or non-binary person working in beverage alcohol who hasn’t seen the spotlight—and should? Nominate them for a future feature by clicking below or email me at beth.demmon.ivey@gmail.com.
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